Tuesday, November 17, 2009

They're Turning This Kid Into A Homo

Watch the news story

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/11/16/am.boy.no.pledge.cnn

The 10 years old kid already wants to be a pro-gay lawyer. The father probably coached him into this shit.

There is a very good reason why gays can't marry- they can't have their own kids.

32 comments:

Garnel Ironheart said...

Your final argument is weak.

For the same reason you could then deny infertile men and women the right to heterosexual marriage.

Vashty said...

Yes, it's weak, but it's obvious that SJ does not need a strong argument as the rest of the language- "homo," "this shit," implies that a bigoted mind is already made up. For shame.

SJ said...

It is not a weak argument. The institution of marriage has a procreation aspect to it.

Vashty did your liberal values teach you to call people who you don't know bigots?

I don't hate homos, I disagree with the lifestyle and kid around once in a while. To take a leap and say that I hate them is sillyness.

Vashty said...

Let's take this opportunity, then, to understand each other. I don't know of any other way to interpret "disagree with the lifestyle." Am I missing something?

It sounds very similar to the police comment in this article:

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/gay-puerto-rican-teen-decapitated-dismembered-and-burned.html

I don't think that, in such a hostile world, it is a matter of political correctness. If you don't know any gay people, it is because they are in the closet (understandably, if their friend "disagrees with the lifestyle"). But the closet sucks (as OTDers know) plus they are still at risk for violence.

I think most people off the derech can say that their parents disagree with their lifestyles. Sometimes this means sitting shivah.

SJ said...

Violence against gays is indeed wrong.


What you are missing Vashty, is that the institution of marriage/family is the vehicle that opens the human species up to its next generation.


It is wrong for the government or anyone else to equate gays with straight people because gays don't procreate.

Vashty said...

SJ, the next generation comes about because of sperm and eggs, not marriage. Marriage, historically, was a way for a woman's family to secure for her a future in which she could not be thrown out of a man's house without some financial compensation. It was also used as a contract on a woman's fidelity to one man, a way for powerful families to form alliances, and a way to presume paternity of- and paternal responsibilities to- a woman's offspring. The institution would be obsolete if we had not found new uses for it, because women are now able to earn a living (besides prostitution) in much of the world and paternity can be proven by genetic tests which are far more reliable evidence of it than marriage licenses and which are effective even in cases of unwed mothers.
The new uses we have found for state-licensed marriage are, as they were in the traditional marriage agreement described above, of civil importance. But they serve a different purpose in our incredibly bureaucratic society, affecting life in areas such as: tax law, the census, child custody, hospital visitation and end-of-life decisions, retirement and bereavement benefits, inheritance, health insurance policies, immigration law, etc. While I think many people, regardless of whether or not they are liberal, would prefer a separation of church and state in which religious institutions can continue to refuse gays the right to marry, grant that right to polygamists, etc. as is their custom, the state should be granting secular, civil marriage licenses to gay couples, for whom many of the above matters are often of pressing importance.

But "it is wrong for the government to equate gays with straight people because gays don't procreate" doesn't make enough sense for me to discuss. Can you explain? I know lots of straight people who don't procreate, and I know gay people who've adopted orphaned children. Not to mention, as Mr. Ironheart points out, infertile or elderly persons; should everyone be subjected to fertility testing before a marriage license may be granted? Should married couples be allowed to use family planning? May people who have had vasectomies or other sterilization procedures be allowed to apply for marriage licenses?

I stated that it was of little concern to you whether or not your argument was strong, because the derisive language in your blog post- and indeed, the intention of the post- implies a preexisting negative bias. I suggested that in the case of the bias, it would not be important to you whether or not you made a strong argument about gay marriage. I would make the analogy to a religious person whose faith alone is enough, and who then is comfortable with the Seven Days of Creation as a theory for the origin of our world.

But I'm still waiting; what does it mean when you say "disagree with the lifestyle?" Does part of you agree with the police officer that the victim had to expect that sort of violence as one of the people who live that lifestyle? (I hate to belabor that point but the similarity between your language and his was alarming to me.) And do you normally call people "homo" and "shit" when you don't hate them? And what do you mean by "equate?"

chaimsmom said...

I know a few lesbian couples who conceived through sperm donation. That's "procreating".

SJ said...

>> SJ, the next generation comes about because of sperm and eggs, not marriage. Marriage, historically, was a way for a woman's family to secure for her a future in which she could not be thrown out of a man's house without some financial compensation. It was also used as a contract on a woman's fidelity to one man, a way for powerful families to form alliances, and a way to presume paternity of- and paternal responsibilities to- a woman's offspring.


That's just having an attitude really. Show me a sociological structure that works better than the heterosexual family for bringing humanity into its next generation.




>> The institution would be obsolete if we had not found new uses for it, because women are now able to earn a living (besides prostitution) in much of the world and paternity can be proven by genetic tests which are far more reliable evidence of it than marriage licenses and which are effective even in cases of unwed mothers.


Calling marriage and family obsolete is sillyness. Men and women will always be attracted to eachother.




>> While I think many people, regardless of whether or not they are liberal, would prefer a separation of church and state in which religious institutions can continue to refuse gays the right to marry, grant that right to polygamists, etc. as is their custom, the state should be granting secular, civil marriage licenses to gay couples, for whom many of the above matters are often of pressing importance.


1) Polygamy is illegal, even in Utah.

2) My reason for being against gay marriage and for disagreeing with homosexuality is perfectly secular.




>> But "it is wrong for the government to equate gays with straight people because gays don't procreate" doesn't make enough sense for me to discuss. Can you explain? I know lots of straight people who don't procreate, and I know gay people who've adopted orphaned children. Not to mention, as Mr. Ironheart points out, infertile or elderly persons; should everyone be subjected to fertility testing before a marriage license may be granted? Should married couples be allowed to use family planning? May people who have had vasectomies or other sterilization procedures be allowed to apply for marriage licenses?


I'm talking about the institution of marriage, not individuals who diverge from what it it supposed to be and what it facilitates.




>> I stated that it was of little concern to you whether or not your argument was strong, because the derisive language in your blog post- and indeed, the intention of the post- implies a preexisting negative bias. I suggested that in the case of the bias, it would not be important to you whether or not you made a strong argument about gay marriage. I would make the analogy to a religious person whose faith alone is enough, and who then is comfortable with the Seven Days of Creation as a theory for the origin of our world.


It really sounds like you have a preexisting negative bias, jumping the gun and calling me a bigot and you don't even know me.




>> But I'm still waiting; what does it mean when you say "disagree with the lifestyle?" Does part of you agree with the police officer that the victim had to expect that sort of violence as one of the people who live that lifestyle? (I hate to belabor that point but the similarity between your language and his was alarming to me.) And do you normally call people "homo" and "shit" when you don't hate them? And what do you mean by "equate?"


It is better for people to be heterosexual than homosexual. I already said violence is wrong, I will not say it again to kiss your butt. I said "homo" and "shit" to kid around, you may not be able to understand it. Society should not equate a family structure that does not create life with a family structure that does create life.

SJ said...

>> I know a few lesbian couples who conceived through sperm donation. That's "procreating".

It's not natural.

Vashty said...

>>I said "homo" and "shit" to kid around, you may not be able to understand it.

You are right. I am clearly in over my head intellectually. Overpowered by the tremendous force of arguments such as "it is not natural" "it is better" and "kiss your butt," not to mention the Institution of Marriage which, you have shown, has a secular Platonic sense all its own ever since the nineteenth century. I could not find the website for the Institution of Marriage even after Googleing with several misspellings. Since you seem to know what the goals of the Institution are I assume that you have some access to the Board of Directors whose contact information I was not able to find on the Internet. Since I cannot ask them what their mission is, I will take your word for it as the closest I can get to finding out.

I'm sorry for calling you a bigot when you are open-minded enough to say that violence is wrong even when it is directed against homo shit. I will follow your example of tolerance and stop judging someone I have never met.

I would like to hear more from you about the Institution of Marriage, like if it is DC and whether or not it abides by international law, but I don't want to bother you anymore for fear I might write something stupid. So let's just live and let live.

SJ said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution

chaimsmom said...

Marriage is about more than having kids. Just ask anyone who has married or re-married after their childbearing years, myself included.

SJ said...

>> Marriage is about more than having kids.

Certainly.

chaimsmom said...

So if marriage is about more than having kids, don't you think those homosexual couples who don't have kids want those same things? And then there are homosexual couples who do have kids.

SJ said...

To allow gays to marry, would be equating them with an institution that does create life, and this is a false equality.


Based on the behavior, or rather, the lack of certain behavior, homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality and that's why homosexuals should not be able to marry.


If 2 gays want to be together though, I don't want to know about it. XD


As for gays with kids; the ideal situation would be for kids to be with their mothers and their fathers. Kids should not be taught that homosexuality is ok.

chaimsmom said...

>>To allow gays to marry, would be equating them with an institution that does create life, and this is a false equality.<<

But you've already said that there are reasons to marry beyond having children. How is a homosexual marriage different from a heterosexual marriage in which there are no children? And what about homosexual marriages with children?


>>Based on the behavior, or rather, the lack of certain behavior, homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality and that's why homosexuals should not be able to marry.<<

So vaginal penetration is essential to marriage? What about heterosexual couples for which this is not possible due to medical reasons? Are they allowed to marry?


>>If 2 gays want to be together though, I don't want to know about it. XD<<

Thank god.


>>As for gays with kids; the ideal situation would be for kids to be with their mothers and their fathers.<<

Perhaps, but lots of children live in other situations an manage just fine. I was widowed when my son was 12. Do I wish he had a father? yes. Is he getting along without one? yes. Do children with homosexual parents thrive? absolutely.

SJ said...

>> But you've already said that there are reasons to marry beyond having children. How is a homosexual marriage different from a heterosexual marriage in which there are no children? And what about homosexual marriages with children?


If it's absolutely impossible for 2 people to have their own kids, it's not a real couple. It's not a real family.


Kids should be with heterosexual stepparents if it's really necessary. Kids should not learn that homosexual parents is ok.

Kids should be able to learn from heterosexual parents how to interact with the opposite gender as they grow up.




>> So vaginal penetration is essential to marriage? What about heterosexual couples for which this is not possible due to medical reasons? Are they allowed to marry?


Basically, yes. People are built to be with the opposite gender. It's what's natural. If a guy and a girl can't because of medical reasons, it is in line with what the institution is so it's ok.


>> Thank god.

I'm not sure I like that kinda joking around.



>> Perhaps, but lots of children live in other situations an manage just fine. I was widowed when my son was 12. Do I wish he had a father? yes. Is he getting along without one? yes. Do children with homosexual parents thrive? absolutely.


Children of homosexual parents could get by economically, but like I said, kids should not grow up thinking that homosexuality is ok.

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