Thursday, April 7, 2011

Anyways ...............................

In real life someone showed me a picture of her relatives during the holocaust with the yellow star on. I wasn't impressed. She said that the yellow star was to make them publically identify as jews. I was even less impressed because that is exactly what the purpose of the orthodox dress code is. See, there are no separate moral codes for separate ethnicities.


It follows that if it is ok for a jew to say that the jews should make a public display out of it from attire then it is ok for a goy to say that the jews should make a public display out of it from attire.

If it is not ok for a goy to say the jews should make a public display out of it from attire, then isn't ok for a jew to say so either.

Anyways, my opinion is if one wants to dress in orthodox attire or have any other display of jewishness on them then it should be as a form of self expression and not as a societal pressure.

22 comments:

Garnel Ironheart said...

There is a world of difference between the Orthodox outfit and the yellow star.
The Orthodox outfit is the uniform of the community, worn to show belonging to a specific group of people for positive reasons.
The yellow star was chosen to identify Jews as being unworthy of the protections society offered to other folks and to mark them out for persecution.
You cannot compare the two just because each was distinctive.

SJ said...

If there's two actions that lead to the same goal, the importance of intent is diminished.

The same goal is met with both the outfit and the yellow star- distinctiveness.

Garnel Ironheart said...

That's like saying there's no difference between salad and steak because eating enough of both fills your stomach.
Or, even simpler: you have hair. That raccoon over there has hair. Therefore there is no difference between you and the racoon.
The Orthodox outfit is self-imposed and a positive expression of one's Judaism. The star is externally imposed and a negative expression of an outside group's version of Judaism.

JRKmommy said...

That statement makes about as much sense as comparing rape to sex.

Do you seriously not see a difference between members of a group choosing how to dress and identify themselves, and a murderous regime imposing the yellow star by law to make it easier to deprive Jews of all rights and eventually kill them?

SJ said...

>> That's like saying there's no difference between salad and steak because eating enough of both fills your stomach.
Or, even simpler: you have hair. That raccoon over there has hair. Therefore there is no difference between you and the racoon.

>> That statement makes about as much sense as comparing rape to sex.

You're being facetious.

>> The Orthodox outfit is self-imposed

That's debatable. Try going into a yeshiva with a hawaiian shirt and short pants.

>> positive expression of one's Judaism.

It's an expression. Whether it's positive or not depends on if the person likes it or not. Neither you or I can say whether it is positive or negative for everyone.

>> The star is externally imposed and a negative expression of an outside group's version of Judaism.

- the star is more honest than the orthodox dress code about being externally imposed dressng like 17 century polish noblemen and having the whole of religious society enforce it while saying it's voluntary. lol

- i'm sure the nazis would say it's positive for jews to wear it.


>> and a murderous regime imposing the yellow star by law to make it easier to deprive Jews of all rights and eventually kill them?

true orthodox judaism won't kill you, but it does indeed limit your rights in comparison to a free society.

JRKmommy said...

I'm not being facetious. The nature of an action changes when you introduce violence.

There is a world of difference between peer/societal pressure and violent state coercion. Nobody HAS to walk into a yeshiva, while the Jews of Europe didn't choose to live (and die) under Nazi regimes. Furthermore, I haven't heard of any yeshiva killing anyone for the crime of wearing a Hawaiian shirt.

SJ said...

Rape and ordinary sex are different goals so you are being facetious.

And actually in traditional Judaism chilul shabbat will give you the DEATH penalty. The nazis will kill you for being a jew. The jews if able to will kill you for not being a (strict) jew.

I don't see a whole lot of difference to be honest.

Larry Tanner said...

From the middle ages, Christian European societies forced Jews (and prostitutes, and lepers, and heretics) to wear badges and distinctive clothing. Christians probably got the idea from Muslims, who in their lands mandated that Christians and Jews be marked by badges/clothing. In Christian Europe, Jews were set apart in walled quarters.

It worked both ways. Jews had restricted lives and were always vulnerable to pogroms, accusations, or scorn. Yet the Jews sometimes had decent lives and livings in these communities and were able to maintain a consistent sense of identity.

JRKmommy said...

The goal of the yellow star wasn't just to make Jews distinct - it was to do so as a stepping stone to genocide.

The death penalty hasn't existed in Judaism for the past 2,000 years, and even when it did it was an extremely rare event due to procedural rules requiring 23 members of the Sanhedrin to vote and two qualified eye witnesses to testify that they saw the action and warned the person of the potential consequences.

Larry Tanner said...

"The goal of the yellow star wasn't just to make Jews distinct - it was to do so as a stepping stone to genocide."

I'm not sure the second part is historically accurate. The yellow star in Nazi Germany certainly functioned as a means to separate and humiliate Jewish people.

My understanding is that mass killings evolved over time as an identifiable end, a "solution." Nazis had originally thought, I believe, that they could simply deport Jews. So I am not sure that was long-term premeditation, although the Nazis surely built an appropriate infrastructure for systematic encampment and mass murder.

What troubles me about SJ's comments is that they sound almost as if he is arguing that the Jews have "gotten what they asked for." They want to be apart, and so some folks (e.g., the Nazis) complied. The real history is more complicated and nuanced, and doesn't hold to that view.

Garnel Ironheart said...

I hate to agree with Larry but he's right about Nazi Europe. It's clear that while Hitler, y"sh, hated Jews and would liked to have seen all of them dead, but he initially didn't act on it the way an adult doesn't go and spend all his money on various tzatchkes just because he can.
Hitler would have been content to have driven them out of Europe and to elsewhere in the world. The world refused to comply by closing their borders so he decided that the world also wouldn't care if he opened up death camps. (Sadly, he was right)

Jrk said...

Larry - you're right that genocide was the "Final Solution" as opposed to the initial approach. That really doesn't change my point, though. The yellow star wasn't just an ethnic costume, but a means to single out people from the general population for the express purpose of increasing levels of discrimination and oppression, which did culminate in genocide. It was never a benign form of identification.

SJ said...

What troubles me about your comment Larry is the leap you make.

I did not say that "the jews got what they ask for." I meant exactly what I said in my post nothing more nothing less.

When a crime is committed the blame always has to be placed on the perpetrators and never the victims.

E-Man said...

SJ- According to your logic white people should be allowed to use the N word just as much as Black people are.

Larry Tanner said...

SJ,

Are you not saying that if some/all Jews want to dress and act in a way that "stands out" in a society, then the ruling government of a society (e.g., the Nazis) is justified in forcing all Jews to wear yellow stars, be divested of their personal possessions, and re-locate to designated areas?

How are you not saying this?

SJ said...

>> SJ- According to your logic white people should be allowed to use the N word just as much as Black people are.

Well actually E-man, the n-word is wrong for both whites and blacks to use.



>> How are you not saying this?

by not saying it! duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh! XD

Larry Tanner said...

Here are your words:

"In real life someone showed me a picture of her relatives during the holocaust with the yellow star on. I wasn't impressed. She said that the yellow star was to make them publically identify as jews. I was even less impressed because that is exactly what the purpose of the orthodox dress code is. See, there are no separate moral codes for separate ethnicities."

To me this reads: "I feel no sympathy for people who were forced to wear yellow stars in Nazi Germany because Jewish dress codes did the same thing--identified the Jews as different from other groups."

Then you say: "if it is ok for a jew to say that the jews should make a public display out of it from attire then it is ok for a goy to say that the jews should make a public display out of it from attire."

Let me translate the above into language that may help you understand what you are arguing: "If a person, let's call her SJ, wants to wear differentiating clothing, then it is OK for Barak Obama to require by law that SJ and her like-minded friends should always and only wear Obama-approved badges and brands."

Nice world you live in.

SJ said...

lol k first of all, i'm a dude. sorry ;D XD

Maybe you should get that dyslexia checked because I didn't write all that bull you're trying to put into my mouth.

>> Let me translate the above into language that may help you understand what you are arguing: "If a person, let's call her SJ, wants to wear differentiating clothing, then it is OK for Barak Obama to require by law that SJ and her like-minded friends should always and only wear Obama-approved badges and brands."

that's not even anywhere near coherent. XD

JRKmommy said...

So, what exactly ARE you saying? Because whatever it is clearly isn't getting across.

I agree with separate ethnicities don't get separate moral codes. That's why I support the rights of ANY group to wear religious garb. I don't see a meaningful difference between a Jewish kippah and a Sikh turban.

Your post, though, is about the difference between Jews themselves deciding to dress in a distinctive way, vs. being forced to wear a yellow star by the Nazis, which is completely different.

SJ said...

>> Your post, though, is about the difference between Jews themselves deciding to dress in a distinctive way, vs. being forced to wear a yellow star by the Nazis, which is completely different.

Nope. That is not what my post is about. "Forcing" is bad. duuuuh.

My post is about exactly what I wrote. I don't see why that's so hard for jews to wrap their heads around. XD

Larry Tanner said...

"I don't see why that's so hard for jews to wrap their heads around."

Let me give three reasons why it's so hard for you.

(1) You're a bigot.
(2) You're kind of stupid.
(3) See (1) and (2).

SJ said...

A bigot is someone who wins an argument against a liberal. XD

All my point is that for anyone to try to compel a dress code is bad and somehow such an innocent point gets turned into WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


gotta love the liberal jews. XD