Monday, April 12, 2010

The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52-53 Israel or Jesus?

Instead of tediously responding to Shalmo's plagiarized monologue from two threads ago that incoherently weaves unrelated issues, I'm going to show the suffering servant of Isaiah 52-53 from a Jewish translation of the Tanach with my comments.

(http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1052.htm, http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm)


Does the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 refer to Israel as a whole or Jesus in particular?



52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.


Jesus had lots of followers.


52:14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--


Jesus had lots of antagonists.



52:15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.


Kings worshipped Jesus. Kings did not worship Israel.


53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.



Jesus was a religious figure from a humble background. He wasn't a pop culture figure.




53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


It was the plan that the Jews should reject Jesus so that he dies on the cross.



53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


Speaks for itself.



53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.


Were the Spanish healed by the Inquisition? Were the fascists healed by the Holocaust? It seems better to say that this refers to Jesus, not Israel as a whole.


53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.


Ok so God placed on one individual the iniquity of many. Sounds familiar.


53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.


Really? Where have we heard that before?


53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.


So this individual would take the heat for the wrongdoings of others .....



53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

Jesus was crucified with two thieves and then buried in a rich man's tomb.



53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:


It pleased the lord to crush Israel? O.O Seems better to say that this refers to one particular who began the spread monotheism through much of the world.


53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

The Righteous One will bear the iniquities of many? O.O


53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Israel or Jesus? You decide.

10 comments:

David said...

Exactly what diseases crushed Jesus?

Don't be an imbecile. This is so wildly unrelated to Jesus as to be unworthy of further discussion.

SJ said...

Look up the word figurative and get back to me.

Shalmo said...

the link from jews for judaism answers these already

52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.

betrayed by his own people, betrayed by Judas, and then cruxified does not add to him prospering

Also when YHWH calls his "servant" who is he talking about ... himself?


52:15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

Where is the proof that any king worshipped Jesus?

52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when Jewry prosper in the messianic age

53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.

Too bad, as previously shown to you, the arm of the Lord talked about in this verse is always used in the Tanakh to refer to the redemption of Jewry (Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

How was Jesus despised and rejected of men? He "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Jesus was never smitten of God; the Romans yes but the Romans aint God. Its obvious the gentile nations here are talking about their giult for wounding Israel


53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

This is applicable to the Jewish people AFTER the messianic age begins, not before

Shalmo said...

53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

Once again the gentile nations expressing their giult for persecuting Israel

53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

The famous "my my God, why have you forsaken me" and "It is finished" at the time of the cruxification do not count as DID NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH!

53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36

53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

A figurative death referring to Israel as seen in Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9

And Jesus did not make his grave with the wicked since he took the two thieves crucified with him to Heaven

53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

How can God, an eternal being, prolong his days? Jesus did not prolong his days, he died very young.

And Jesus did not see his seed, because he had no children

53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

It does not say he will atone for their sins, it says the suffering servant will "justify the Righteous One to the many". Any idiot knows this is a reference to the jewish mission to spread knowledge of God throughout the world, hence the servant justifying the many

53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Shalmo said...

SJ I don't know if you have been ensnared by missionary tactics, the same way Jews for Jesus function; in which you really should read this:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/component/content/article/24-jews-who-returned/475-saved-a-young-jewish-man-gets-ensnared-in-the-welcoming-community-of-messianic-jews-

SJ said...

Ensnared is extremist language. No need to make a conspiracy or a diabolical scheme out of simply choosing a different religion.


Jesus was YHVH's avatar so Jesus can be looked at as YHVH's servant.


Where is the proof that kings worshipped Jesus? STUPID QUESTION. Read your history books Mr. Scholar.



Your interpretation of 52:15 is also not what I pick up from reading the plain text. Looks more to me like the narrator of Sefer Isaiah talking, not the gentiles.



>> Too bad, as previously shown to you, the arm of the Lord talked about in this verse is always used in the Tanakh to refer to the redemption of Jewry (Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

* shrugs* Jesus is about the redemption of mankind. Nice try though.

>> How was Jesus despised and rejected of men? He "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).


Jesus had lots of followers AND lots of antagonists. This is not news.


>> Jesus was never smitten of God; the Romans yes but the Romans aint God. Its obvious the gentile nations here are talking about their giult for wounding Israel

In standard Judeo-Christian theology it is ordinary for God to work his will through people.


There is no textual support that 53:5 is applicable after the messianic age.



53:6 to make light is not the best translation actually. The hebrew for it is ,להפגיע to strike.


This answers the why have you forsaken me issue.

The problem with saying that the suffering servant of Isaiah 52-53 refers to Israel is that The entire text does not fit with Israel.


>> And Jesus did not make his grave with the wicked since he took the two thieves crucified with him to Heaven

Stupid comment. Shalmo you confused the verse totally. Noone said Jesus made his grave with the wicked but with the rich.

>> How can God, an eternal being, prolong his days? Jesus did not prolong his days, he died very young.

Jesus was resurrected. duh.

Jesus saw his figurative seed.

In Isaiah 53:11, Jesus carried the iniquity of mankind.

And lastly in Isaiah 53:12, the New Testament says that Jesus, God's avatar ascended to be consistent with the text.

SJ said...

Ok if the link to להפגיע don't work then go to morfix.co.il and copy and paste the hebrew word into the translation search.

Shalmo said...

SJ its becoming more and more obvious you have not read any systematic theology books that properly outline how the trinity works

Because to say Jesus was God's avatar on earth is pure heresy. Just as it is heresy in orthodox christianity to compare the trinity to water becoming ice or vapour. Because the three personalities are distinct, co-equal and pre-existant.

Jesus was not born on earth, rather he always existed with the Father along with the Spirit.

And because they are distinct it is also heresy to say the Father was the one who died on the cross, and not the Son, because the two are not inter-malleable.

This is also why those christians who use Isaiah 9:6 to say this refers to Jesus miss quite deeply the formality of how the trinity works. Because the Father is NOT the Son. YHWH in the OT, known as Father, is not the Son. So this verse does not refer to him.

Shalmo said...

I am not interested on going in circles with you on Isaiah 53

Anyway if you think Christianity really does make sense then please can you answer me what is going on in this debate between Shabir Ally and Jay Smith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2KICP-2lnQ

Its very easy to decipher who won since christianity makes no sense

SJ said...

Shalmo, you are a moron. I mean the term avatar as something apart of the trinity not as something separate from it.

I didn't watch the vid but .... Oooooooh so you find one debate where the Christian in it was caught unprepared. big deal. Seems to me you lost over here.