Friday, March 26, 2010

www.MessiahTruth.com Debunked Part 6

From the home page.


>> For almost two thousand years, the Christian Church has taught that Jesus was crucified, died, and was resurrected three days later. This has long been one of the church's foundational beliefs, along with the virgin birth, atonement, and future second coming of Jesus.
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from man to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and the Passover was changed to Easter.


Here are some resources that go about answering this. After all, no need for me to reinvent the wheel. XD

13 comments:

Shalmo said...

Don't know why I'm bothering since you have already made up your mind about many of these topics. But you should know "religious tolerance" is perhaps the worst site for you to learn about any religion

That said since you quoted the site as your proof-text, a couple of quotes from there should suffice:

"The Jewish Christian movement was under the leadership of James -- the brother of Jesus, Peter and other disciples. They sacrificed in the Temple and observed the Laws of Moses, including Sabbath observance on Saturdays."

Do you not believe you just shot yourself in the foot by citing the above? Because it seems even they agree that James kept Christianity Jewish, while the Pauline faction transformed Christianity into the pagan mystery religion it is today. Case in point, the above shows James kept halacha and the Saturday Sabbath, the latter Pauline christians made the Sunday argumnet and your proof-text agrees with it.

"There appears to be no consensus on whether Jesus, his disciples, or apostles celebrated the Lord's Day on Sunday. There seems to be no internal evidence that would justify the Christian church changing the day from that commanded in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). However, in later centuries, moving from Saturday to Sunday certainly was beneficial if for no other reason than to improve the security of Christians by distancing Christianity from Judaism in the eyes of the government"

Did you get that? The very site you quoted says there is no internal evidence for why a change to Sunday occured aside from political reasons.

Where does Jesus ever say change shabbat from Saturday to Sunday?

Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the Law (Torah) but fulfill it? Both in Mark and Mathew a man comes to Jesus and asks him what to do to go to paradise and Jesus asks him to continue following Judaism, to keep with the asherat ha debirot (10 commannments), which incidently include a shabbat on Saturday. Christians who do the Sunday thing are contradicting their own messiah

Shalmo said...

I must add this wonderful gem about Jesus from the Rambam:

Rambam commented that Daniel 11:14 (regarding people who try to establish the vision but stumble and fall) is a reference to Christianity, saying:

"Is there a greater stumbling block than [Jesus]? All the prophets foretold that the messiah would redeem the Jews, help them, gather in the exiles and support their observance of the commandments. But he caused Jewry to be put to the sword, to be scattered and to be degraded; he tampered with the Torah and its laws; and he misled most of the world to serve something other than G-d. "

SJ said...

>> "The Jewish Christian movement was under the leadership of James -- the brother of Jesus, Peter and other disciples. They sacrificed in the Temple and observed the Laws of Moses, including Sabbath observance on Saturdays."


>> you not believe you just shot yourself in the foot by citing the above? Because it seems even they agree that James kept Christianity Jewish, while the Pauline faction transformed Christianity into the pagan mystery religion it is today.


No big deal. Paul himself said in Romans that he acted as per halacha while he was preaching to the Jews.


>> "There appears to be no consensus on whether Jesus, his disciples, or apostles celebrated the Lord's Day on Sunday. There seems to be no internal evidence that would justify the Christian church changing the day from that commanded in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). However, in later centuries, moving from Saturday to Sunday certainly was beneficial if for no other reason than to improve the security of Christians by distancing Christianity from Judaism in the eyes of the government"


>> Did you get that? The very site you quoted says there is no internal evidence for why a change to Sunday occured aside from political reasons.


>> Where does Jesus ever say change shabbat from Saturday to Sunday?


Helloooooooooooooooo, moot point. Christianity is not under mosaic law.



>> Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the Law (Torah) but fulfill it?


The mainstream interpretation of this is that Jesus came to fufill what the law has been pointing to as opposed to someone simply ripping it apart.



>> Both in Mark and Mathew a man comes to Jesus and asks him what to do to go to paradise and Jesus asks him to continue following Judaism, to keep with the asherat ha debirot (10 commannments), which incidently include a shabbat on Saturday. Christians who do the Sunday thing are contradicting their own messiah


You seem to be making stuff up. In Mark 10:17-25 Jesus only gives the morality stuff


Matthew 19:20-30 also has nothing to do with any suggested requirement to follow halacha.





>> Rambam commented that Daniel 11:14 (regarding people who try to establish the vision but stumble and fall) is a reference to Christianity, saying: (etc. etc. etc. I'm not gonna bother quoting the whole thing.)

Just one individual's opinion. No big deal.

Shalmo said...

"No big deal. Paul himself said in Romans that he acted as per halacha while he was preaching to the Jews."

And you don't find it weird Paul is not being consistent with what Jesus and James are doing?

If Jesus is following Jewish law, and James is following Jewish law, and along comes Paul and say Jewish law is no more applicable. Don't you find that weird? Why is Paul not being consistent with Jesus and James?

"Helloooooooooooooooo, moot point. Christianity is not under mosaic law."

Jesus said to follow the 10 commandments which are part of the 613 mitzvohs revealed to Bani-Yisrael. IN FACT, all the other 613 commandments are grouped under the aserit ha debirot, which makes it all the more obvious that when Jesus tells the Jew in Mathew and MArk to stick with the 10 commandment, he is practically saying stick with the halacha.

And again the shabbat is part of the 10 commandments which Jesus told him to follow. If you are following the 10 commadnments then you also must keep shabbos

"The mainstream interpretation of this is that Jesus came to fufill what the law has been pointing to as opposed to someone simply ripping it apart."

Where in the Tanakh or any of our jewish scriptures does it say one man "fulfilling" the Law abrogates it for the rest of us? If Jesus fulfilled the Law, kudos to him, that does not mean now the rest of Jewry no longer have to follow them

If Jesus says he came not to abolish, then that means the 613 mitzvohs are still mandatory for all of Israel.

If you can find just one verse from Jesus that says JEws no longer have to follow halacha, then you will have made your case. Can you find any such verse?

"You seem to be making stuff up. In Mark 10:17-25 Jesus only gives the morality stuff

Matthew 19:20-30 also has nothing to do with any suggested requirement to follow halacha."

repeated above on how the aserit ha debirot encompass all of the 613 commandments. And even if you cannot see that, then at least be honest and admit in the 10 commandments keeping shabbat is outlined on Saturday, which is exactly what Jesus told the man to do.

No where did he say he is seperating moral laws from whatever. That is something you are reading into the text

"Just one individual's opinion. No big deal."

On the contrary, a Jew choosing christianity is worse than a jew who simply becomes an atheist, hindu, muslim, jain, animist or whatever. Here is why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWNw-WGoIE

Shalmo said...

I'm sorry, that last comment came off as really rude. I shouldn't have said it.

I was blaming christianity, not you per say, but the religion itself. Christianity is the anti-thesis of Judaism, not its fulfillment.

I rant and rave against the shit I see in the orthodox world. But Judaism in any form is better than Christianity.

I still don't get why you feel Christianity allows you to follow only the moral laws in Judaism. Reform is not different from Christianity at all, they too just water down all of halacha.

SJ said...

>> And you don't find it weird Paul is not being consistent with what Jesus and James are doing? If Jesus is following Jewish law, and James is following Jewish law, and along comes Paul and say Jewish law is no more applicable. Don't you find that weird? Why is Paul not being consistent with Jesus and James?


Seems to me Paul was consistent with James and Matthew as he followed halacha while he was amongst Jews if it was necessary to win them over.


>> Jesus said to follow the 10 commandments which are part of the 613 mitzvohs revealed to Bani-Yisrael. IN FACT, all the other 613 commandments are grouped under the aserit ha debirot, which makes it all the more obvious that when Jesus tells the Jew in Mathew and MArk to stick with the 10 commandment, he is practically saying stick with the halacha.


>> Jesus said to follow the 10 commandments which are part of the 613 mitzvohs revealed to Bani-Yisrael. IN FACT, all the other 613 commandments are grouped under the aserit ha debirot, which makes it all the more obvious that when Jesus tells the Jew in Mathew and MArk to stick with the 10 commandment, he is practically saying stick with the halacha.


When Jesus said to follow the commandments, he only gave the ethical stuff not the ritual stuff. Your argument Shalmo is borderline making stuff up.



>> repeated above on how the aserit ha debirot encompass all of the 613 commandments. And even if you cannot see that, then at least be honest and admit in the 10 commandments keeping shabbat is outlined on Saturday, which is exactly what Jesus told the man to do.


Again you are making stuff up.


>> No where did he say he is seperating moral laws from whatever. That is something you are reading into the text


There is a very clear distinction between moral and ethical laws.


>> I was blaming christianity, not you per say, but the religion itself. Christianity is the anti-thesis of Judaism, not its fulfillment.


Times change. In the old days everyone was killing everyone. Nowadays, the western world is the global leader in civil rights.


>> I still don't get why you feel Christianity allows you to follow only the moral laws in Judaism. Reform is not different from Christianity at all, they too just water down all of halacha.

Thing is I'm conservative even on social issues i.e. gay marriage and abortion. Gay marriage and abortion is like the shahada for liberal jews; if they find out I'm against that stuff and I'm in their community they'll haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate me.

I'd rather be apart of a community that is more prone to being conservative.

SJ said...

>> No big deal. Paul himself said in Romans that he acted as per halacha while he was preaching to the Jews.



My mistake, Corinthians.

leto said...

bitul hamizvot ( nullification of the commandments) is from Paul, not any of the disciples that knew Jesus and I think understood him a tiny bit better that Paul who if he ever met him it was only to condemn him. Personally I don't understand why anyone would consider Paul an authority of Jesus at all? If you want to understand Jesus it would seem to me that there is plenty y of good writings from the other disciples. (Incidentally in the Eastern Church they put all the other disciples writing Before Paul. Paul was doing as best he understood--but so what. That still does not make him an expert
There is a difference between meaning well and actually understanding a subject.

SJ said...

Helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo leto people who believe the New Testament consider it to be divinely inspired.

Shalmo said...

You are not dealing with arguments. I see nothing but red herrings.

The asherit ha debirot (10 commandments) are not even mitzvohs, rather they are categories which contain the other 613 mitzvohs. If you were raised as an orthodox jew then why do you not know this?

"Seems to me Paul was consistent with James and Matthew as he followed halacha while he was amongst Jews if it was necessary to win them over."

OMG; so you are saying its ok for that putz to pretend to be a frum jew so long as he can convert them to Christianity?

"Times change. In the old days everyone was killing everyone. Nowadays, the western world is the global leader in civil rights."

If you like the western world so much then you outta be a secular humanist as that is the defacto religion the West sponsors. All the way from the French Revolution the conception of civil rights was conveined in opposition to Christianity, so its kooky to say you support the western ideal while defending christianity.

"Thing is I'm conservative even on social issues i.e. gay marriage and abortion. Gay marriage and abortion is like the shahada for liberal jews; if they find out I'm against that stuff and I'm in their community they'll haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate me.

I'd rather be apart of a community that is more prone to being conservative."

Thanks for letting me know. SJ you don't really believe in Christianity. The above comment proves it.

You just want a Judaism with no strings attached, which is exactly what Paul made Christianity. He hated the Law (Torah), referring to it as a curse and chose Jesus precisely because he no longer had to follow any of the laws; where belief alone could ascertain salvation. And your reasons for choosing Christianity are no different.

So I have to ask, if someone came to your house tomorrow and threatened to behead you. And to spare yourself all you had to do was denounce Jesus? Would you do it?

Of course you wouldn't. You don't really have a conviction for it. You have no zeal for it, because you don't really believe this is the one great truth of the universe. Christianity is just a fad you are trying on. A Judaism without a Torah. Nothing more and nothing less.

SJ said...

Shalmo, you should consider a career as a storyteller since you are good at making stuff up.

Remember, Paul was Jewish, and of course jews can take the religion and do what jews want with it. Christianity evolved separately later in time. The first Christians were Jews. And, Paul had respect for the law. Read Romans.


Lastly, questioning my sincerity as opposed to discussing the issues is the only red herring I see and is highly insulting. Intrestingly Shalmo on my blog you pimp orthodox judaism and on Garnel's blog, you pimp atheism.

Shalmo said...

Either the Law exists or its abrogated. Jesus by supporting the asherit ha debirot pretty says its active; why else would he say not an iota of the Law (Torah) will vanish till heaven and earth pass away. Paul is the only one who ever says Jesus committing suicide somehow removes it for the rest of Jewry

And yes I DO QUESTION YOUR SINCERITY; because you just told me the reason you chose Christianity is because you want to be with a conservative community. This does not sound like something a sincere convert would say. Jesus is a matter of convenience for you, he is not someone you would give your life for. Again if tomorrow someone came threatening to kill you and you could save yourself by giving Jesus up, would you take up the offer? Come on, you and I both know the real answer.

There is no insulting going on, remember you are the one who used the ad hominems in the previous threads, I didn't. I am only engaging in a friendly discussion of your decision to be a Christian.

As far as my so-called pimping is concerned, if you must know I believe in God, but not Torah MiSinai. But I do believe Torah in various defines what a Jew is, even if a person don't believe in it. A Jew is anyone who identifies with the people this book is about. And yes Orthodox Judaism gets on my nerves for all the reasons you have raved about in this blog, but I have never advocated atheism. I have always advocated approaching religion with rationalism, because I do believe in the divine, but not the special people crap. Which is also why christianity gets on my nerves, because here again you have an "elect" as the Pauline epistles point out, who gain salvation while the rest of us burn in Hell. Its the same special people bullcrap reinvented.

Shalmo said...

Time to wrap up.

Anyway if you really feel Christianity is the only things that works then consider this lecture by John Thatamanil.

His version of Christianity is the only rational form of of the religion that is appropriate for the the 21st century. In fact OJ would be a lot more productive if it followed his approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7Q-TgYjjw

Enjoy!