Sunday, February 3, 2008

ORTHODOX JEWS WHO MAKE OSAMA BIN LADEN PROUD

Today I saw that girl who in an earlier post I said how she was pissy with me. This post on orthodox insanity is in her honor. Her name is ############ Whine.....someshitlikethatiforgotexactly.


The word from the Jewish Daily Forward (http://www.forward.com/articles/12558/) now is that Orthodox Jewish women in Israel are now wearing burkas. Is that a suprise? No. It all started with shomer negiah, which is not even apart of the 613 mitzvot. What shomer negiah says is that if a girl and a guy has a high five, that the girl and the guy is punishable by God.

IS THIS NORMAL???????????????????????????????????????????????????????


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


SHOMER NEGIAH IS NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SHOMER NEGIAH BELONGS IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Also Aish.com's dean Rabbi Noach Weinberg, no relation the the girl from before, "was diagnosted with a serious illness."

On Aish.com's steps on how to heal the rabbi, it says:

3. Love the Jewish people; fight for the Jewish people. a. If Jews are united, the Almighty is with us. If we're divided, we're on our own. Reach out to a fellow Jew who is different than you and show him that you genuinely care. Share the beauty and depth of Judaism with a fellow Jew who may be disconnected. b. The Jewish people are in grave danger; we must not remain silent. Become an informed activist and do what you can, whether it is combating radical Islam, exposing media bias or standing up for Israel.

[end aish quote]

Note to Aish: Maybe Aish can stop showering antiIsrael rabbis with praise.

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good article. You are the kind of Jew I would like to follow. The Jewish religion is reaching close to the insanity of the Taliban. Yes there are some crazy Jewish women in Israel wearing Burquas. What next women wearing tefillin, oh wait they did that already....Avi

SJ said...

Avi, thank you for posting.


I think that the root of the problem is that the orthodox are trying to market their form of Judaism as "having fun through puritianicalism."

I prefer having fun through hanging out with girls and going to the movies ... as opposed to the orthodox who prefers having fun through being Amish one day a week.

I also would like to note that I dislike tefillin because I am uninterested in having red marks on my arm every morning.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> I prefer having fun through hanging out with girls and going to the movies

Odd, because any mention of girls in your blog inevitably ends in the words "pissy" or "Taliban". What's dinner conversation on a date with you like?
"Boy I'm glad you're a skank"?

SJ said...

Garnel, lets try to stick to the issue and avoid stupid jokes.

Garnel Ironheart said...

What joke? I'm simply using the same logic as you.

Is this new "burka brigade" a crazy expression of fanaticism run amok? Yes, absolutely. Is it typical of chareidim? No, it's not. The response at this point from the rest of the community is (a) ridicule (b) fear that eventually the trend will spread and these fanatics will define the new norm, something the main community does not want to happen.

Therefore, lumping all chareidi women in together and condemning limitations on physical interaction between the genders is the real issue.

Would it be fair for me to lump all secular Jewish girls in together based on my memories of how promiscuous some were when I was in undergrad? In other words, because some can't control their hormones, are all secular Jewish girls sex addicts? Of course not, and anyone suggesting that is ignorant.

But that also goes for the Chareidim. I wish you could see past your dislike to that point.

SJ said...

Garnel, reread my post again and then respond. You are just spewing politically correct "you have no right to judge us all" crap ("even though we think that a girl will get punished by God if she has any physical contact with a guy" mind you) without responding to my post point by point.

Garnel, you must have slept through all your Englsih classes in high school. Too bad ashkenez yeshivot aren't big on deekdook either so perhaps Garnel, would it be a fair statement that you don't know shit except how to repeat dogma?

Garnel Ironheart said...

>Today I saw that girl who in an earlier post I said how she was pissy with me.

Don't blame her. You seem to bring it out in people.

>Her name is ############ Whine.....someshitlikethatiforgotexactly.

Ah. Well I'd love to know what your name is. Probably something like Imaselfrighteoussonofmywifessister whothinksheshotcrapbecausehefiguredouthowtosetupablog. Or something like that?

> now is that Orthodox Jewish women in Israel are now wearing burkas. Is that a suprise?

Further, is it correct? Well, uh no. On two counts. First, only about 100 women are doing it and secondly, a burka is a large sack with a translucent screen for the eyes to see through. These woman are covering themselves in scarves and robes. Same result though.

> It all started with shomer negiah,

Got news for you. The whole shomer negiah thing? Doesn't really exist. We Orthodox invented it at our last general meeting (I think it was in Marseilles) to bother you. "Hey," we all said, "this will really upset SJ. Let's pretend we don't touch each other when he's around." Because we really care about what you think. No really.

> which is not even apart of the 613 mitzvot.

Neither are Chanukah candles. What, you don't like latkes?

> What shomer negiah says is that if a girl and a guy has a high five, that the girl and the guy is punishable by God.

No, it doesn't. Nowhere in the real rabbinic literature (as opposed to the one imagined by your confused intellect) will you find such a harsh interpretation. Indeed, it's considered to be in poor taste for boys and girls to touch. It's also in poor taste for you to speak but that hasn't seemed to stop you so maybe you just don't recognized the concept.

SHOMER NEGIAH IS NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone didn't get lucky last weekend, eh? Boy, what a guy will do to blame anyone but himself for the fact he stayed in his folks' basement on Saturday night alone enjoying some B movie because he couldn't get a girl to return his calls.

But I'm just guessing that's your lifestyle. Heck, I'll just say that's what it is. After all, you don't know me but you've already decided where I went to school and what kind of marks I got.

SHOMER NEGIAH BELONGS IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure, and Pakistan, France, Britain and the USA. After all, that way no one can get any, just like you.

>Also Aish.com's dean Rabbi Noach Weinberg, no relation the the girl from before, "was diagnosted with a serious illness."

I fail to see exactly how this is relevant to the previous post. There are, however, psychiatric terms to describe tangential thinking like this.

> 3. Reach out to a fellow Jew who is different than you and show him that you genuinely care.

Yeah, I can see why you're offended with that sparkling (lack of) personality of yours.

> Note to Aish: Maybe Aish can stop showering antiIsrael rabbis with praise.

Exactly where was the praise in the part you put in your post? And how do you know this rabbi is anti-Israel?

>Garnel, you must have slept through all your Englsih classes in high school.

A guy who can't spell the word ENGLISH right (when it's his first language, yours seems to be Babble) shouldn't criticize others.

> Too bad ashkenez yeshivot aren't big on deekdook either

Wouldn't know. Never went to one.

> so perhaps Garnel, would it be a fair statement that you don't know shit except how to repeat dogma?

No, but it would be fair to point out your reasoning skills are about as sharp as a lump of butter.

SJ said...

>> Don't blame her. You seem to bring it out in people.

Only when I go for that effect XD

>> Well I'd love to know what your name is.

I am what I am.

>> No, it doesn't. Nowhere in the real rabbinic literature (as opposed to the one imagined by your confused intellect) will you find such a harsh interpretation.

When you make a religious law against something you are saying that God is going to punish you somehow for breaking it.

>> And how do you know this rabbi is anti-Israel?

reread my blog article previous to this one.

>> A guy who can't spell the word ENGLISH right

typo :|

>> I fail to see exactly how this is relevant to the previous post. There are, however, psychiatric terms to describe tangential thinking like this.

Since when was it a psychological disorder change the subject or to talk about two subjects at once? I am not writing a formal essay for college here.

Garnel, you have still failed to defend why it should be considered "in poor taste" for a guy to have a high five with a girl.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> Garnel, you have still failed to defend why it should be considered "in poor taste" for a guy to have a high five with a girl.

Well, it all depends on the culture you come from. Clearly in secular culture there's nothing wrong with it. In Jewish culture there is. Now, are you saying that a guy giving a girl a high five is such a basic human right that any culture (and it isn't just ours) that frowns on such behaviour is wrong?

Isn't that a tad judgmental and intolerant?

I told ya: You've got an Orthodox heart under all that bluster.

SJ said...

>> Clearly in secular culture there's nothing wrong with it. In [orthodox] Jewish culture there is

Thanks Garnel, we know. I asked you to justify it, not merely to repeat that the difference exists.

Stop ducking the issue.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> Thanks Garnel, we know. I asked you to justify it, not merely to repeat that the difference exists.

Why should I have to justify it any more than you have to justify people casually touching each other in the first place? What makes your value the default and mine the aberration that I have to justify it to you?

Orthodoxy is about responsibilities. Secularism is about rights. Which is better? I say my way, you say yours, but in the objective amoral scheme of things, who's right? What makes you the arbiter of "normal"?

You shout about the Orthodox leaving you alone but you keep coming after us. Maybe if you just minded your own business and tried to be the best SJ you can be without worrying what others may or may not be thinking of you, youi'd find a lot more happiness for yourself.

Dave said...

Remember the good old days? The days when the haredi were nothing more than Judaica Kitsch ala "Fiddler on the Roof" and Hora dancing pop figures on those cheesy prints that they crank out by the thousands so culturaly superficial American Jews can have a souvenir from their trip to Israel, but accidentally bring home the shtetl. Now they dress their kids in orange shirts and send them to face down the army and the police while they stay home, wasting everones time making up idiotic, non-binding,dress codes. As if the zoot-suits and the snoods wern't enough

In Israel,the ultra-orthodox do not control the means of production. Indeed, they revel in the fact that they barely participate in the economy at all. The excuse for this being, that as a collective they are heavily involved in the spirtual welfare of "Eretz Yisrael"(as opposed to the State of Israel, which they do not recognize)and therefore involved in work much to important to be interuppted or disturbed by something as mundane or pedestrian as "work". They're non-participation has, despite their numbers has made them largely socialy irrelevant in the lives of most Israelis.

As the self-appointed custodians of our national soul, they do have to look like they're doing something every now and again. Hence the Burka dictate. It's also useful as a way of diverting attention away from such behaviour as rabbinical child rape and drug money laundering, crimes in which the entire haredi community has been complicit through their silence. Therefore, it should come as no surprise how quickly and easily Haredi women have aquieseced to this outrageous and medieval demand.

SJ said...

>> Why should I have to justify it any more than you have to justify people casually touching each other in the first place? What makes your value the default and mine the aberration that I have to justify it to you?

Excellent slogan of a kiruv ad, "WE DON'T HAVE TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING"

I don't think that that will fly.

>> Orthodoxy is about responsibilities. Secularism is about rights

Ok its official!!! Garnel does not think that orthodox jews should have any rights! XD

Ok that was a joke, but to say that secularism is not about responsibilities is the height of bigotry. I have a job. Secularists have jobs. Are we not responsible people? Oh and, kollel peeps don't have jobs. XD

>> You shout about the Orthodox leaving you alone but you keep coming after us. Maybe if you just minded your own business and tried to be the best SJ you can be without worrying what others may or may not be thinking of you, youi'd find a lot more happiness for yourself.

lol Garnel, why don't u tell the kiruv people to mind their own business? Or is it just that you feel that the things orthodox rabbis say should not be allowed to be debated?

Garnel Ironheart said...

I must be missing something. Do you have a kiruv rabbi following you around during the day, or stalking your house at night? Kiruv organizations, like any other, have a right to advertise, encourage participation and make claims on behalf of their organization. You're offended by those claims so tune them out. It's a free country and just like you get your opinion, so do that.

>Ok that was a joke, but to say that secularism is not about responsibilities is the height of bigotry.

Only in the secular world could a court find a house owner guilty of manslaughter because he didn't take the car keys from a drunk guest who subsequently ran someone over. Or how about the guy who came late to work on a regular basis because he was always hung over and successfully sued his company for wrongful dismissal when they fired him for poor performance?

Secular culture today is ALL about a lack of responsibilities combined with people screaming "I have a right to..."

> I have a job.

I'm guessing it's in an isolated cubicle and that the people in the next ones over avoid talking to you. Just a hunch.

> Secularists have jobs. Are we not responsible people?

Ooooh, you have a job and that makes you responsible. It takes a little more than that.

> Oh and, kollel peeps don't have jobs. XD

I do. I'm willing to bet I work more hours a week than you and have more responsibilities too. So much for that argument.

The bottom line - I'm not trying to come up with good kiruv slogans. I'm not in that field and I'm not crazy about the tactics many of its occupants use. You live your life but stop haranguing people who you disagree with. It's a great way to wind up spending Saturday nights alone muttering about girls who call you "pissy"

SJ said...

lol Garnel, it really seems that you think that stuff orthodox rabbis say should not be debated. Well guess what, the things they say will be debated. And I am not alone.

Also, your description of secular culture is simply bigoted and your preconception of me is simply not factual.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> lol Garnel, it really seems that you think that stuff orthodox rabbis say should not be debated

No, I don't think so at all. The beauty of real Orthodoxy is that it has answers to the challenges of secular culture and responses to most any question. However, you're not suggesting that. You're scraeming "My values are right and yours are wrong." That's not debating. Debating is recognizing that the opposing point of view just might be legitimate and you have to prove yours is more.

As for:
>your description of secular culture is simply bigoted and your preconception of me is simply not factual.

For example, is shomer negiah a reasonable behaviour? You might say no and bring arguments as to why you're right. I might say yes and do the same to support myself. Onlookers could then decide who has made the more convincing case.

That's not your approach though. You insist, ab initio, that you're right, no questions asked. You don't challenge, you insult and deride. How can anyone have a conversation around that?

Dude, change the world "secular" to "Orthodox" and you've just described yourself perfectly. That's my main point.

Dave said...

"...Debating is recognizing that the opposing point of view just might be legitimate and you have to prove yours is more."

Debating as defined by someone who is part of a group that is constantly demanding validation for,among other things, misogyny,xenophobia, tax fraud, money laundering, etc, etc, etc.

I hate to piss on your parade sparky, but I'm afraid not. To wit;

de·bate /dɪˈbeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-beyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
–noun 1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3. deliberation; consideration.
4. Archaic. strife; contention.
–verb (used without object) 5. to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.
6. to participate in a formal debate.
7. to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.
8. Obsolete. to fight; quarrel.
–verb (used with object) 9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.
10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
11. to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.
12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.
13. Archaic. to contend for or over.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/DEBATE

The haredi are never interested in debating. What they are interested in is recognition of they're self-proclaimed spiritual primacy within Judaism(indeed, the world)and constant demands for validation of the aforementioned proclamation and aquiesence to their "obvious" halachic expertise. Anything less, is apparently unacceptable. The "debate" over these issues, as far as the ultra-orthodox are concerned, is a mere formality, a palative to humor "wayward" Jews.

SJ said...

Good point Dave. The whole POINT of debating is that you have a point and that you feel that your point is correct and its your job to prove it. All this talk about starting with the admission that the other side might be right is just silly, though there is a need to be intelectually honest if one is in fact wrong.

Btw Garnel, Mr. Answers Man, I'm still waiting for your answer about how to justify Shomer Negiah XD

Honestly Garnel, stop blathering about the existence of answers and just answer already! Garnel- in every post so far you have been ducking the issue.

Dave said...

sj,

Thanks. As a secular Israeli and labor zionist, I appreciate your blog on many levels. In regards to;

"...All this talk about starting with the admission that the other side might be right is just silly, though there is a need to be intelectually honest if one is in fact wrong."

You've hit the nail on the proverbial head. What you have described basically amounts to a forfeituer of your position even before the debate has begun. This is exactly what the ultra-orthodox want. Since they refute the concept that there is anything to debate about, this is the ideal. Unfortunately for all the Yankeleh's and Rifkahleh's out there, this is the real world. Their positions and stands will be taken to task across the broad spectrum of the media, whether they like it or not. Therefore, they have no choice but to respond. This creates quite a dilemma for them. If they respond, its tantamount to accepting the concept that their interpretations of halacha ARE IN FACT, open to question. If they don't, they lose the debate by default, with their mantle of Judaic spiritual credibility and primacy hanging in the balance. Hence the need for such nonsensical sophistry as;

"...Debating is recognizing that the opposing point of view just might be legitimate and you have to prove yours is more."

Garnel Ironheart said...

Nonsensical sophistry?

From a Labour Zionist? The group that's currently working to sell out the country it built to people who want to destroy it? You guys should talk.

Shomer negiah is, by the way, not natural. On a different part of the scale, neither is using a fork and knife to eat your food. Or using your brains to thing intelligently insteading of using multi-syllabic words to disguise your witlessness. All these actions are quite unnatural, from an animalistic point of view. But that's the whole point. The Torah is supposed to elevate us above our animal natures by creating unnatural barriers to our base behaviours. We become beings who do intelligently, instead of just following our primitive instincts. It's that bit of enlightment that seems to be evading you guys.

Dave said...

Typical haredi peasant. Once again confusing his interests and those of his religous cult with that of the State of Israel. We're not selling out Israel. We're selling you out. Once secular Israel is through surgically exicising you from the territories, they're going to surgically excise the haredi from the Israeli body politic by the enactment of various legislative acts, beginning with an anti-coercion laws and ending with a seperation of church and state. Yankel, I see you fear secular Israel. You should.

SJ said...

Although I was for slicing off Gaza (think of it as amputation of sorts), I am not for spliting up Jerusalem .... and I am uncomftorable with Dave's particular reasoning for it.

However, it is no secret that if the orthodox were the majority in Israel, there would be no right to be secular in that country.

Why fight religious nuts from another faith if only to be ruled by religious nuts of one's own faith?

Also Garnel, thanks for letting us know that Orthodox Judaism considers a high five between a guy and a girl to be a "base behavior."

Garnel Ironheart said...

> We're not selling out Israel.

No, because by propping up Abbas, a man whose PhD is from a thesis on Holocaust denial, by handing weapons over to Arabs who then use them to shoot at Israeli soldiers, by spending money in diplomatic forums to PROMOTE the interests of the Palestinian authority, you're actually SUPPORTING Israel.

As for your surgical analogy, I'm not surprised you've got it completely wrong. After all, them Chareidim don't have such big communities in Yehudah and Shomron. Slice off those pieces of land and you lose the source of most of the officer corp of the IDF.

But then, foresight was never a Labour Zionist strength, was it.

SJ said...

>> No, because by propping up Abbas, a man whose PhD is from a thesis on Holocaust denial, by handing weapons over to Arabs who then use them to shoot at Israeli soldiers, by spending money in diplomatic forums to PROMOTE the interests of the Palestinian authority, you're actually SUPPORTING Israel.

Garnel, Abbas was appointed by ARAFAT.

>> As for your surgical analogy, I'm not surprised you've got it completely wrong. After all, them Chareidim don't have such big communities in Yehudah and Shomron. Slice off those pieces of land and you lose the source of most of the officer corp of the IDF.

I for one am not talking about the datiem in gaza, but rather its Arab population.

If Israel kept Gaza hypothetically, Israel can either make Gaza's Arab population as noncitizens or citizens.

Keeping Gaza's Arab population as noncitizens is apartheid and is untenable for Israel on the diplomatic front.

Keeping Gaza's Arab population as citizens would only make Israel's Jewish majority less certain.

The fact that you can't see this Garnel means that frankly you should keep quiet about issues of foresight.

SJ said...

I would just like to add, does someone being shomer negiah automatically mean that s/he is intelligent? And does someone not being shomer negiah automatically mean that s/he is NOT intelligent?

Garnel, your argument is blown right out of the water.