Sunday, November 25, 2007

Change of Mind (sorta)

Okay, so recently I have been getting over being sick (bad congestion), and I changed my mind over two things. One, beforehand I viewed agnosticism as the only intellectually honest approach to religion although I was atheist leaning. That changed, simply because the personal need for a higher power was just too great. It was more of an emotional change than a rational change.

Secondly, in reference to the Shabbat, I now feel that being able to shut down one's self to the maximum amount possible before falling asleep for an extended period of time is just as important to one's health as anything else important to one's health.

(I changed in a third way also, I am finished with soda, Burger King and McDonalds, I was having these things on a rather regular basis ... and if I go back to them its gonna disarm me and I am going to be right back where I started -.- )

Do not take this as all of a sudden me agreeing with everything orthodoxy says. lol, far from it. I will not join a society in which talking to girls is discouraged. I will not join a society in which jeans are not allowed in schools (that's just stupid). These are among my issues with orthodoxy, among others, but for the sake of brevity I shall save them for other posts.

Basically the orthodox gotta understand- if they want "paloni ha-cheloni" to join their society then its the orthodox that gotta do the changing and the convincing ... not vice versa.

In other words, if secular people are saying that orthodoxy is simply too strict (which I would imagine is exactly how many of us feel), then its the orthodox that gotta take heed of these concerns if they wish to mekaraiv us.

8 comments:

Garnel Ironheart said...

> if secular people are saying that orthodoxy is simply too strict then its the orthodox that gotta take heed of these concerns if they wish to mekaraiv us.

On the contrary, it's the people who are looking for some sense of order and limit in their lives that are attracted to Torah Judaism. People with the attitude "I'm fine the way I am, now what do you have to offer me?" aren't going to respond to kiruv because kiruv demands a person reassess those parts of their lives they thought were fine and look at them from a different angle.
Additionally, to downplay or change the strictness associated with being a Torah Jew would be dishonest and no doubt this blog would criticize the Orthodox for doing such a thing.
Here's the point... again. You've clearly had some bad interactions with certain frum people but have gone on to generalize and believe that all frum people are the same way. You wouldn't do that with any other ethnic group so ask yourself why you're doing it with us. Take a closer look into the frum world, see the variations and learn about those groups you might feel you have something more in common with. Otherwise, you run the risk of sounding like sour grapes.

SJ said...

>> On the contrary, it's the people who are looking for some sense of order and limit in their lives that are attracted to Torah Judaism.


You mean rabbinically interpreted / orthodox Judaism.


>> Additionally, to downplay or change the strictness associated with being a "Torah Jew" would be dishonest and no doubt this blog would criticize the Orthodox for doing such a thing.

That is exactly what I am advocating.

>> Take a closer look into the frum world, see the variations and learn about those groups you might feel you have something more in common with.

Strict, strict, and more strict?

Garnel Ironheart said...

> You mean rabbinically interpreted / orthodox Judaism.

Well of course I do! Torah is indivisibly composed of both Written and Oral law which has been rabbinically intepreted thoughtout the millenia. Just because many of today's rabbonim aren't doing such a great job selling the product doesn't mean the system isn't good.

> Strict, strict, and more strict?

How would you define Rav Avi Weiss? How about Cong. Shirah Chadashah in Jerusalem?

Anonymous said...

<< Well of course I do! Torah is indivisibly composed of both Written and Oral law which has been rabbinically intepreted thoughtout the millenia.

from dictionary.com
mil·len·ni·um
1. a period of 1000 years.

"Rabbinic Judaism or Rabbinism (or in Hebrew "Yahadut Rabanit" - יהדות רבנית) was the continuation of the Pharisees after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE" from wikipedia.

but perhaps one can go just a bit further to the beginning of the zugot - which started at 515 BC.

"thoughtout the millenia" is an exaggeration.


Rav Avi Weiss - in the minority of opinions that's for sure. Same for Shira Chadasha but I do hope they expand to the United States for the sake of providing much needed alternatives.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> from dictionary.com
mil·len·ni·um
1. a period of 1000 years.

Uh huh. 1 millenium. 2 millenia. And your point is?

>but perhaps one can go just a bit further to the beginning of the zugot - which started at 515 BC.

"thoughtout the millenia" is an exaggeration.

Huh? You've just gone back 2500 years in time and then said millenia is an exaggeration?

And for the point about Weiss and Shirah Hadashah, the idea wasn't that they're the majority but that Orthodoxy, far from being the monolithic black wall it's portrayed as here is actually quite variegated. One who looks can probably find a group he could be comfortable with. My point was not to be stereotypical and dismissive.

SJ said...

>> Huh? You've just gone back 2500 years in time and then said millenia is an exaggeration?

Its not like rabbis existed since the time of Moses so rabbis are not inherent to Judaism. They were just what we was left with at the end of the second temple. That's my point.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> Its not like rabbis existed since the time of Moses so rabbis are not inherent to Judaism. They were just what we was left with at the end of the second temple. That's my point.

"Rav" means teacher. Teachers have existed since the time of Moshe Rabeinu. They are termed elders, prophets or seers but the Tanach definitely testifies to the existence of men who taught God's word. It is true, however, that the term "Rav" or "Rabbi" appeared late in the Second Temple era but that doesn't mean they weren't there before.

SJ said...

"Rav" means teacher.

I would think that more precisely the word rav means great one due to its root & similarity with rabiem and rabotai.

Moreh and melamad means both teacher.